Unfazed: 6 Unique Ideas to Equip Christian Students Heading to University

Steve:
Is it possible to face secular scientific ideas and remain unfazed as a Christian student? Today we will be presenting some unique ideas from the field of Bible Science research that will equip a Christian young person to successfully navigate the university experience. Good ideas and real answers that will enable a Christian young person not only to survive university but also to thrive. That's what we're talking about today in our podcast.

Hello and welcome to the BC Messenger podcast, Real Science, Real Bible, Real History, and Real World. This is episode number 37. We are now in our fourth season podcasting.

Jennifer:
Yes, welcome to season four, episode one. Three full years of podcasting are behind us. When we finished our first year, we celebrated and we did giveaways. We went out for lunch. It was a big deal, kind of like your kid's first birthday. But here we are now with three full years behind us starting into our fourth year. Thanks for joining us.

Steve:
Yeah, thanks for being here. And we are excited about today's episode. We have a lot to cover and to go over. We really have one main topic today that we are covering. First of all, though, let's talk about a giveaway we're doing.

Jennifer:
Yeah, so we are doing a giveaway actually. Something celebratory here at the beginning of season four. We are asking our listeners, if you will leave us a positive written review on Apple Podcasts or on our website, thebcmessenger.com, during the month of August, we will enter you in a drawing for a $50 Amazon gift card.

Steve:
Wow, 50 bucks. That's something.

Jennifer:
Just take a couple minutes. Leave a little thought about the podcast and we will enter you into the drawing.

Steve:
That's awesome. So hope you get involved in that. You don't have to do much to try to win it. And we never know how many people are going to do it. So your odds might be pretty high if you just jump in there and put your name in the pot. Well, normally I would say at this point in the podcast, I'm so glad to be here with my wife, Jennifer. And I am, this time too, glad to be here with my wife, Jennifer. But there's someone else in this studio with us today that's not normally in the studio with us. And as we delve into the topic that we have on this episode, we welcome a special guest. And we know this guy pretty well. Pretty well.

Jennifer:
We've known him all of his life.

Steve:
And he's known us all of his life. Yep. His name is Josh. Josh Hall is our son, our oldest son who is joining us today, having just emerged from the university scene, and has some experience, has some insight to share with us that is very relevant for today's featured topic. Josh, good to have you with us today.

Joshua:
It's good to be here.

Steve:
Glad to have you. You just graduated. Tell us a little bit about it.

Joshua:
Yeah. I've been in school for a long time. I've actually been in college since 2018. Just finished that up. Just finished my master's degree in communication in May. And I'm back in this area for a little while. And so we thought we'd do a podcast together. I've actually wanted to do a podcast with you guys for a while. So I'm glad this worked out.

Steve:
Josh has a podcast. It's famously called The Josh Hall Podcast.

Joshua:
The Josh Hall Podcast. You can find it on Spotify and YouTube. Yes. I'll give a shameless plug right now.

Steve:
Not shameless at all. That's very good.

Joshua:
I did want to say this though quickly before we move forward. You said this is your 37th episode of this podcast. Have you talked about... I don't know if you know this or not. I don't know if I've told you this or not. But the statistics say that only 1% of podcasts make it to episode 21.

Steve:
Really?

Joshua:
Yes. So if you make it past episode... If you make 21 episodes of a podcast, you are in the top 1% of all time. Did you know that?

Jennifer:
Ooh! I love being in the top 1%.

Joshua:
I just released my 19th episode. So I'm close to being in the top 1% all time. Everybody wants to have a podcast, but being consistent is very hard.

Steve:
Right. Well, we're thankful that we are where we are. We're thankful we have the listeners we do have. And it's really one of the main ways that we have right now to put the message out that's here. We feel that we're building a foundation here. And a podcast has a long shelf life. It's not like it just goes out there one time. And if people missed it, they missed it. They can always go back and re-listen and we keep that in our heads. So it's there. The information's there.

Jennifer:
The 36 episodes we put out have all been on a unique topic. They all have value and they continue to have value into the long term. So we're glad to be building this library of resources.

Joshua:
And also, you do episodes once a month. So actually, that's, in my opinion, remarkable consistency because most podcasts are doing more than that. Like in a month, they'll do one episode a week. So to do 36 episodes is three years like you talked about. So you consistently do a podcast for three years. Well done.

Steve:
Yeah. Well, thank you for the encouragement. Appreciate that. All right. Our featured topic, we hope this will be a lot of help to a lot of people, Unfazed. Six unique ideas to equip Christian students that are heading off to university. It's August. It's time. People are going back to school, getting back into the rhythm of it. And there's a lot of young people who are going to be facing a lot of hard questions, situations. And we want to give help to that. We believe we have help here. Really good answers and advice and things to give. Over 2.5 million students are going to begin college as first time freshmen in the coming weeks.

Jennifer:
Yeah. These stats were surprising to me. The first half of the stat we just gave, two and a half million students starting college as first time freshmen. That is a lot of people.

Joshua:
Yeah. It's actually, it's almost closer to three when I was looking up these numbers. I think that they predicted 3 million by 2030.

Jennifer:
So keep that in mind and then listen to the next part of the stat that relates to what we're doing here. 

Steve:
Roughly 50% of them will be from some kind of a Christian background.

Jennifer:
Roughly 50%, half of first time college freshmen across the board are from some kind of Christian background. A million to a million and a half freshmen.

Joshua:
Yeah. I think that that's just, that's a very generalized sense of Christian background. It's just Americanized.

Steve:
Catholic, Protestant.

Joshua:
Most people have some sort of Christian background. I think that that number has actually been shrinking. You know, I think in the past you could have said 75, 80% of students would have some kind of Christian background. So it's probably getting smaller, but still that's a lot. And the point is Christianity is not unfamiliar to people.

Jennifer:
Right. And our featured topic, Unfazed, Six Unique Ideas to Equip Christian Students Heading to University, this is not applying to a small minority. It's applying to about half kids who are going in as some kind of a Christian student into university.

Steve:
Right. So what's the problem here? Why are we talking about this? Entering a college environment, whether private or secular can be challenging for a Christian young person. Why? Well, new ideas are being presented from all directions, things they've never heard before. Sooner or later, they're going to be facing some major ideas that seem to oppose their Bible-believing foundation. That's what they're facing.

Jennifer:
I think evangelicalism knows this, you know, in a general sense, that it can be very challenging for a Christian young person to enter secular university. Even if they were from a public high school, you know, it's just not the same environment that you're going to have at this higher level. And our byline here, real science, real Bible, real history, real world, there's four things, three out of the four are going to be present in the university scene. Real science, real history, real world, is all going to be there. But we're adding this fourth element. And indeed, they all four go together, real Bible.

Joshua:
Well, let me say this, having come out of the university scene recently, I think that going to college, going to university, is a time where you are supposed to get exposed to new ideas. And you're young and you haven't decided what you think about a lot of things yet when you're college age. And I think that kids in university are asking a lot of questions. And this is based on my own experience of myself and my experience of knowing other people my age, is that it's a time for asking a lot of questions about the big issues in life. And so whether you're at a secular university, or a Christian college or a Christian university, I think everybody has the same questions that they're trying to figure out. And so, you know, whether you're getting real Bible and real science, or whether, you know, whether it's from an unbiblical worldview, those young people are still asking the same questions. And so I think what we're going to talk about here today applies to everyone, because it kind of gives a framework for how to think about some things from a foundational point of view, some stuff that comes from your work here. And so regardless of who you are, and regardless of what school you go to, this stuff is very helpful. It's been extremely helpful to me. It's shaped my thinking in a lot of ways. And so I think it can be helpful to anyone.

Jennifer:
Yeah, I love that point. This is not just for those going to a secular university. I remember many years ago hearing about a Christian young lady who went to a private school, a Christian school for college, and ended up in a very somewhat dark time in her life where she actually ended up questioning a lot of things about God, about her faith, in a Christian school. Because yes, like you're saying it's just a time in your life where you are trying to figure things out and your comfort zone is being shaken up to some extent at least.

Joshua:
I think there's a misconception that if a young person goes off to secular university, they're going to be faced with a lot of hard questions and they may question their faith. And if they go to Christian university, they won't do that. That's not true. I think any young person questions their faith.

Steve:
We're in a day two of major modern advancements in science and technology and communication. The internet's opened up a world of ideas we didn't have before. So yes, it's vital now that we have good answers, real solid data. That's what we're going to get into in a minute. We'll talk about that.

Some days or weeks ago, Josh, you showed me a video online on, I think it was Facebook or something, of a fella who has a podcast. And he was talking about this very thing about young people going into college. And he gave a good point, and maybe something we could share here that can help us all to realize how this actually works, maybe. It's not so much kids going in and then there's some professor that's just like blatantly laughing at their faith and mocking them. But he was giving a different point.

Joshua:
Yeah. Right. So I think that, like I said a second ago, any kid going to college is going to start to question things, regardless of what the professor's saying. Now, if you're at a Christian school, your professor is going to be saying something different from a professor at a secular school. So basically what the guy was saying in his video, and again, he's a Christian apologist, has a podcast and talks about these ideas a lot. And he said this, he said, what's going to happen is that the professor, he's talking about a secular school, that the professor is going to be sympathetic to Christianity and sympathetic to the student, and then is going to show them that it's great that you have that faith and that Christian belief system and everything. But in this classroom, what we're going to do is we're going to talk about what's real, like the real world. So I'm happy that you grew up with that faith, but now you're in the real world and here's the stuff to prove it, right?

Steve:
So God bless your parent's hearts, grandma and grandpa's hearts. They meant well, but they come from an old school. We get that, but now you're in university. Right. And now we've got to tackle the real problems in the real world.

Jennifer:
But that may not even be stated. It may just be this presence in the classroom of sophisticated thinking of advanced, we're moving on, we're learning about our world. And in that, the child begins to realize, and that's what this quote was saying, that these new ideas, these sophisticated thoughts in this classroom where we're talking about what's real, yeah, this isn't compatible with the Bible.

Joshua:
And so basically, what that professor, a secular professor is going to set up, is going to set up a dichotomy between the Bible and God and data. So I have real world data. I have the real world truth to show you, right? And those are some nice ideas, but they can't hold up to the data. That's what he's going to approach it from that angle.

Steve:
And what we are saying and what we've been saying and we'll keep saying is that as Christians, we need a data-rich apologetic.

Joshua:
Because if you go to a Christian school, like I did, it's going to be flipped. And what you're going to have is, well, it kind of goes like this. The Bible is the truth, is the data that we need. And then when we find scientific data, if it matches with what we think the Bible says, we like it. And if it doesn't match what we think the Bible says, well, there's got to be a problem with that data somewhere. And then that's how it's approached. And I don't believe we agree with that approach either.

Steve:
No, we believe here that it is God's Word, definitely. And it is also God's world. All of these things are telling us what God wants us to know. It all belongs to him. And if they're both true, and they are, they will coincide. And we can figure this out. And we didn't have a problem with this 100 years ago until we started digging in the dirt. We started finding things about the chronology, things weren't matching. And now we have had problems for a long time.

Joshua:
Yeah, science has given us data that we didn't have before.

Jennifer:
Right. Science has progressed in so many areas in recent decades in the last 100 years. So it has left us with a lot of questions to answer. But the scientists are just pressing on in their pursuit of knowledge about the world, and nobody really has done a very good job of picking up the pieces of trying to deal with the Bible/science questions. But we do have one scientist who is working very, very busily in that field. And that is the work that we represent here on The BC Messenger podcast, which is Dr. Gerald Aardsma, who is the patriarch in this situation. He's my father and Joshua's grandfather. And we're very happy to be able to communicate his work here.

Steve:
Well, and I think a keyword is unique. What we have here is unique for your young person or for you going to college, you're not going to hear the answers we have here anywhere else. You cannot go to creationist's research or even groups like, you know, there's, we know the names, Biologos or ASA, these things. We have here unique ideas from an independent research scientist. And you know, the truth is we are a family here. And that's why we're here. Dr. Aardsma's daughter, myself, her husband, and then Dr. Aardsma's grandson, because somebody's got to get this thing off the ground. And we are in a unique position to have trust and faith in what he's doing here as an independent research scientist. And we're hoping podcasts like this, as we get this information out, you will begin to see as well more and more that this is all just adding up. It makes sense. And it's good, unique, solid answers for young people. That's what our heart is here.

Joshua:
And the reason why it's unique is because we are not going to throw out the Bible for the data, and we're not going to throw out the data for the Bible. Well, we're going to talk about that all here in a second.

Jennifer:
Yeah, you're about to get into our first of our foundational principles.

Steve:
That's right. That's where we're headed. And let's jump right into that. We're going to travel through three foundational principles on this episode. And then we're going to travel through three big ideas. Okay, so all of these topics, let me mention right here from the start, are covered in depth on other podcast episodes. We're not going to have time today, of course, to get in deeply on every single one of these topics. But you can go back. Those podcasts are sitting there, ready to be listened to at any time. You can go back and listen for more detailed explanations of these things we're covering today. 

Okay, three foundational principles. Number one, hold a high view of both science and the scripture. We've already touched on this. But let's talk about it just for a minute, a little bit more, holding a high view of both science and the scripture. Both belong to God. Both are used to shape our understanding of truth. And both are vital to a proper understanding of the world that we're in. When I was in school, when I was learning, you know, the technical term was we have general revelation and special revelation. General revelation is in the world. God's created the world and then God has given a special revelation through his word to know things about him that we couldn't know through the world. So both of these we hold high.

Joshua:
But let me ask you, so when you were taught about special revelation and general revelation, which I have also heard taught, which one was better?

Steve:
Sure, in a Christian environment growing up in the time I grew up in, the special revelation is above everything. Superior to general revelation. So we have the foundation of everything, the Word of God. And you know, I respect that.

Joshua:
I agree. Me too.

Steve:
And it is where we have found ourselves for so long, but maybe we didn't realize it was because our data rich apologetic was seriously lacking. And that's why we are where we are today. We had to make it up with something.

Joshua:
Well, and can I just say like the problem with holding special revelation scripture as entirely superior to general revelation, science, that kind of thing, is that you're assuming that your understanding of the special revelation is inerrant. Or is completely accurate. And I think we'll talk more about this in a minute. But that's my issue with it.

Jennifer:
I think that you will not find this kind of approach, a high view of both science and scripture, really happening anywhere else. In the university classroom, secular, there's going to be a high view of science. In the Christian university classroom, there should be a high view of scripture. Other Christian groups, apologetic groups, one is going to take a backseat to the other every single time. There are certain groups that will hold the Bible very, very high, and they're happy to just disregard any science that doesn't seem to work. And then you have other groups who are Christian groups who do hold the science quite high, and then they're happy to kind of disregard the scripture whenever they need to. Well, that's not literal. Well, that's not, that must not really mean that. And so what we have here is wanting to be very honest and seeking a harmony between the two without having to disregard, without having to turn off, you know, one area of information.

Steve:
And that is unique. It is very unique. All these groups want to claim that they have a high view of both. But when you actually dig in, you realize that no, one of them seriously lacking in one way or another. We here are saying we absolutely do hold a high view of both science and scripture.

Joshua:
Yeah. And it's hard to do that. It's not the easiest thing ever to say, well, we want to hold the Bible very high and take it for what it says. And we want to take the data for what it says, because sometimes they do seem to conflict. Definitely. But that's okay. So some practical things to me for a university student going into university. How do you hold a high view of science and scripture? Well, to hold a high view of the Bible, you know, you should take your Christian faith seriously. You should attend church. You should be involved in your local church. You should read your Bible, you know, you should know what it says. I think it's hard to take a high view of scripture without knowing what the Bible says. And so read it, know what it says, believe it. But don't close your mind to what you're hearing in the classroom or what you are hearing from anybody. I'm generally not in favor of closed mindedness.

Jennifer:
Presumably in a secular school, you're going to be hearing a lot of science, even at a general entry level freshman year. So you won't be having any trouble hearing about data and things like that. But what you're saying is, also make an effort to stay connected into the teaching of God's word so that you can stay strong as you navigate forward.

Joshua:
Yeah, don't be reactionary. I've been thinking about this recently. It's very easy to, when you hear something that you don't agree with, to just react to that thing, and to react in a negative way when you hear something you don't agree with. In my opinion, it's much wiser, and actually much more fun, to engage with ideas, don't react negatively, but say, "Hmm, let me think about that."

Steve:
And respond with emotion. Like you said, reactionary. Right. Instead of thinking. And wanting to come to the truth, find out how do these things come together? Can they come together?

Joshua:
Don't be afraid of new ideas. Do not be afraid of new ideas.

Steve:
And that takes us into our second point of our three foundational principles. Don't fear data. Fear is a good word because that really is a lot of our problem. We are scared. We don't think it's right to be having an open mind because we've, you know, we've been told for so many years, you've got to believe it this way. You have to accept this interpretation. This is the way it is. And if you dare deviate from that path, then God's going to judge you. I mean, so we're trying to say, Wait a minute. If it's data, if it's truth, then even if it's challenging your assumptions, it's okay. With a heart toward God, fear toward God, let's look at the data. Let's not fear it.

Jennifer:
God uses data actually. And we know, we're familiar with, oh, God uses his word. God uses teaching and preaching. God uses missionaries. God uses other Christians to encourage me. But is it possible, you know, to put our minds in the direction that God actually uses things like measurements and facts and information?

Steve:
They belong to him.

Jennifer:
To help us understand. I have a brand new quote from Dr. Aardsma just a couple hours ago. I made a note of it on my phone because I was over in his lab for a few minutes chatting with him.

Steve:
A fresh quote.

Jennifer:
Yeah. And he said something. And I said, "Oh, I got to make a note of this for the podcast." Here's what he said. "Data is the universe's say on what's really going on." And he was working on a specific project in the lab. And we were talking about that project. And he said, You know, you've got theory, and now we've got to make these measurements. And it may or may not challenge, you know, our ideas, our theory up to this point. But you could put God in there instead of universe. Data is God's say on what's really going on.

Joshua:
Right. And I think we've all heard the little phrase, "All truth is God's truth." Which I think that's true. Here's how I like to say it. If Christianity is true, it's all the way true. Right? And so, if what you believe is true, you should not be afraid of something like data, because what is data ultimately? Data is facts, truth. Right? And so if what you believe does not match up with the data, you will believe the wrong thing. And that's scary to say that.

Steve:
Somebody's head right now is exploding because we just said data is God's truth. We just said that if you want to find truth, find data, and they're saying, "No, God's word is truth. God's word is where we find what God wants us to know." So we are challenging these preconceived ideas. And interpretation is a key word here, because we want to say, "Well, you're using your own human thinking and reasoning to find truth." Well, the truth is we can turn that around, because interpretation of even what the Bible says is human reasoning and thinking. If you have 2 plus 2 equals 4, that's called hard data. And this is part of our problem. That belongs to God. That's God's word on it, because He created that. If you want to go and say 2 plus 2 equals 6, you are wrong.

Jennifer:
Even if you think the Bible says it.

Steve:
That's exactly right. And you interpreted the Bible saying 2 plus 2 equals 6. What do we have here? It's called a check. And that's what data does for us. It helps us check our interpretation, which is our human reasoning about what God has said.

Joshua:
This is how we know, this is how we parse between different religions. So how do we know that Mormonism is false and Christianity is true? Do you believe that that is true, that Mormonism is false and Christianity is true? Well, if so, why? And one reason, I'll tell you this right now, why I'm not a Mormon, is because a large majority of what they teach, of what the Book of Mormon teaches, is laughable when it comes to the hard evidence and data in the real world. So they believe things like, the American Indians are genetic descendants of the Jewish race. That is a joke, right? And that's not... 

Steve:
The data has shown us that that's completely false. So if your religious beliefs are saying what the data is not matching, you've got a problem there.

Joshua:
There's an issue somewhere.

Steve:
And it checks you. It helps you check what you believe.

Jennifer:
And that is the secular professor's view of Christianity. Christians believe things like the entire world was flooded and other things that science doesn't really bear out in any way.

Joshua:
I think an objection here would be, where does faith come into all this? So what do you think? Pastor Steve?

Jennifer:
Hey, you're the guest. You're not supposed to be asking questions on this podcast! Just kidding.

Joshua:
You're right. I'm sorry. But I mean, I can talk about it.

Steve:
Well, faith is, of course, is hugely important. God puts so much emphasis in the Bible on faith. That's how we're saved. That's how we come to Christ. But it's not a blind faith. It's a faith based on real-world evidence. And we're living in a time where I'm beginning more and more to understand and believe God has given us a huge responsibility today, he's put that responsibility on us, because we have the tools that we've never had before to be able to show people that if you put your faith in this Bible and in this Jesus, you're putting it in the real thing.

Joshua:
Right. I love that difference between blind faith and a reasonable faith because to me, to use Mormonism as an example again, that's a blind faith. They have a lot of faith and they really believe that stuff. But if you ask them why, they can't give you reasons. They don't know. But they just choose to believe it. And that's fine.

Jennifer:
Well, and there's a lot of social pressure. I mean, you're born into it and everybody that you know is in it and everybody's really nice and kind. That's right. They love you. And really has a good heart. So that's hard to then say, "Well, you know what? I don't think this is factually true." And we do not want the Christian university student to find themselves there because they don't need to be there. The Bible/science field of research is showing us over and over and over again that the history and the foundations of our faith is more real than you ever imagined, as we have said here before. And I did want to bring up that, don't fear data, and you were talking about the Bible in there. But what I wanted to point out is the Bible in some sense is full of data. And instead of seeing it constantly as a spiritual book where I go to like learn lessons, we need to also enlarge our view of it, that it is an enormous treasure trove of ancient data, that if your university professor would take it seriously, would be world changing in some ways. And it's so valuable as an ancient record. Don't just see it... You know, as a university student, and then you go to church and you hear the word of God preached, look into that ancient book and think about what kind of data is this presenting to me that can help shape my ideas about this world that God has put us in, in the history of it.

Steve:
And shape our ideas about God himself, glorifying God and seeing him in the scriptures in faith in the data that's in the world in all of this. And that's what we mean, part of what we mean, with our first point, holding a high view of both science and scripture, and not fearing the data that comes our way. 

Joshua:
Right. What we're really saying is don't be afraid of the data in the Bible and don't be afraid of the data outside the Bible.

Steve:
That's right. All right, then our third point under the three foundational principles is chronology is key. Now, don't go anywhere, because that sounds kind of boring, doesn't it? Chronology is key.

Jennifer:
It's not boring at all.

Steve:
It's not boring at all. And it's huge. Always ask, when did a particular event happen? We've said this a lot here, and it's one of the points we make all the time. If a story is true, you have to know two key things. Where did it happen? Where in the world? And you know, if it's Cinderella and you're not sure where that kingdom is, that's a problem. So where did it happen? And then you have to know when, when did it take place? And that's the backbone of history and understanding data and understanding truth. We cannot understand the past in any meaningful way without placing events correctly on the timeline.

Jennifer:
Yes. And this is true in both secular science and history and of course, in understanding biblical history. We've been reading First Kings with our family recently. We're about six chapters in and we have a timeline, a homemade timeline. It is not in the room where we've been having these Bible studies with our family. And I, so many times I've been wanting to refer to that timeline as we're talking about Solomon building the temple and different things, because you really need that framework to properly understand the history being taught to you. And I do know that in Christian circles, at least, chronology is very, very downplayed by a lot of Christian groups. They don't want to talk about dates because it gets them into tricky, murky, difficult waters very quickly.

Steve:
We have a whole episode on radiocarbon dating. And many of you know listening to this, that's a dirty word in a lot of young earth creation circles. Why? Because of what you just said, Jen, that we don't want to go there. We don't want to touch chronology because it gets us in a mess with what our interpretation is of the scripture.

Joshua:
Yeah, I would say that the vast majority of the data that we share here at the Biblical Chronologist, at the BC Messenger, is chronological data. Is that true?

Jennifer:
Well, it's always the foundation. I mean, it goes in a lot of directions, but it's always, always there. 

Steve:
Well, he's called The Biblical Chronologist for a reason. It's the foundation of everything.

Joshua:
Yeah, this is a huge point. And so we've been talking recently about Christian apologetics. And from what I have seen of the field of Christian apologetics today is that it's a very extensive field. Most of our listeners are very familiar with the famous Christian apologists. And apologetics today is very strong in theology. You know, taking what the Bible says and breaking it down and understanding that. It's very strong in philosophy often. The best Christian apologists are great philosophers and they can argue from morality. They can argue from, there's a million arguments for God for the truth of Christianity. However, Christian apologetics seriously lacks really any kind of empirical data. There's been some work done with that type of thing. But it definitely lacks chronological data. And what that means is, when did this stuff happen, especially in the ancient Old Testament?

Steve:
Well, that's going to say it's be more specific. It would be before the time of King David. Right. When we get to King David and thereon, we're doing pretty good. We have evidence of Christ. But when we get before that, and that in itself, Dr. Aardsma points this out, isn't that odd that you get to a certain point and then nothing before that is working out in the Bible. So something's wrong with the chronology.

Joshua:
Right. And I think that sometimes this problem is so ignored that people don't even know it's a problem. But there is no real-world evidence for things like the Exodus, the flood, Mount Sinai, the children of Israel wandering in the wilderness. We do not have, at least in secular science, we do not have evidence that shows those events occurring. And so, they are often looked at as fairy tales. And so, that's why chronology becomes key. Because if we can't say when and where did the Exodus happen, when did the flood happen, then it really may as well be a fairy tale.

Jennifer:
And those problems that you just touched on are the areas of Bible science research that have been investigated by Dr. Aardsma and have been really, solved, just to be honest with you, from these foundational principles that we just, that we're laying out right now. High view of science and scripture, taking seriously all data, and chronology being key. And it's amazing where this has led. But you're right. I mean, secular science right now is in a place of not seeing any evidence at all. And it's really based upon the chronological framework that they're in.

Steve:
And you're right. These questions have been solved, at least to a point. And that takes us into our three big ideas. We have just given you the three foundational principles, hold a high view of both science and the scripture, don't fear the data, and chronology is key.

Jennifer:
Now, I wanted to say something really quick right here. On chronology is key. And we're talking about dates. And I can just see a Christian young person getting ready to go to university thinking, well, what do you mean? I mean, I'm going to go to university, I know they're going to talk about millions of years. I know they're going to talk about really, really, really old stuff in this universe and whatever. And I don't believe that data. I know that that's not, doesn't match with the Bible. And so why are you telling me to take this all so seriously and to put everything in a chronological framework? It's just not, I know it's not going to work. And that's kind of where we're headed. So hang with us.

Joshua:
And it goes back to don't be afraid of the data. So if you're seeing chronological data, stuff happening when you didn't think it happened, it's okay, don't be afraid of it. And I was just going to say and point out that with other ministries that are Christian apologetic type of ministries, you will never, or very close to never, hear them say anything about when stuff happens. Let me give an example. So Answers in Genesis, they do similar work to us, but I find major issue with the way that they approach these kind of things because they will never, I have never heard Answers In Genesis talk about when the flood happened. They will tell you that it did. They will tell you that there's evidence for it, which I disagree with their evidence. But what they never say is we know the flood happened, we have the evidence, and we can tell you when it happened. And the reason why that's so important is because evidence only works, that type of evidence, geological evidence only works if you know when that piece of evidence was put there. Right? I have recently been out west a couple times and I've done some hikes through some of the canyons out there. And I was with some friends and, you know, we're all Christians. And some of the people in the group started talking about how it's so amazing that Noah's Flood carved this canyon. And I just remember thinking to myself, well, how do you know that? There could have been a million things that could have made this canyon. Why does it have to be Noah's flood? But it's just assumed. It's just like, well, obviously it's Noah's flood because...

Jennifer:
What else could it be?

Joshua:
It just was. But the real question to ask is, well, do we have any way of knowing when this canyon was made?

Steve:
Do we have data to check our opinions?

Joshua:
Right. So if we can know when the canyon was made and if we can know when Noah's flood was, well, if those two things match, there's a pretty good chance that Noah's flood carved the canyon. If those two things do not match, the date for Noah's flood and the date of the carving of the canyon, which we do have ways of telling that kind of thing, then it probably was not Noah's flood. So to me, it's very irresponsible thinking and really just kind of silly in the end to just assume that Noah's flood... and  again, this is just an example, but does that kind of thing. So that's why dating, that's why chronology is so important. We have to know when stuff happened.

Jennifer:
And that's why the data is so important and trusting the amazing tools of science that we have at our disposal that really, despite the claims that you hear, there's no good reason to doubt. And scientists like Dr. Aardsma have specifically gone in to investigate what is going on with these dating methods and have come out saying, "This is an amazing tool. This is incredible." And we don't need to go around saying it's not trustworthy, because it's extremely trustworthy.

Steve:
So the university student is going to be sitting in a desk and the secular university professor is going to be looking at that student saying, again, bless your mom and dad's heart. Bless your grandparents, heart, your pastor. But let me provide you the data of that canyon. Let me show you in that canyon what in the real world caused it to be formed. And he's going to be presenting him with things like millions and millions of years, and erosion, and not anything to do with a lot of water and a giant flood. So that's where he's going to find himself, this student in university, and we want to give help to that. We want to show there are answers here that are really good answers. So let's go through these. Our three big ideas.

Jennifer:
These three big ideas really come directly out of Dr. Aardsma's decades of Bible/science research. And these that we're going to present here are completely, as far as I know, pretty much unique to the work of the Biblical Chronologist. But these are great ideas to have in the back of your mind. Now, Dr. Aardsma was interviewed on our podcast a couple years ago, and he did give some words to students going into university. So I wanted to bring back up one thing that he said. He advised that you may not be able to dialogue very well with your professors or others in the secular environment because you're going to be coming from a completely different paradigm than what they're coming from. So he advised, you know, you're going to have to be very, very skillful at dialogue to be able to even discuss these ideas. But you can have them in your mind as a framework. And then maybe over time, you can develop confidence and familiarity and be able to dialogue. But just keep that in mind. You know, you're going in to learn. You're not going in to set everybody straight. And you're probably going to look kind of silly if you try to do that. But just keep a receptivity in your heart, and keep these foundational principles there in the framework of your thinking.

Steve:
Yes. Now, chronology is key. We've already said that. And our first big idea has to do with, of course, chronology. One of the main, maybe the main idea presented here at the BC, the BC Messenger, Biblical Chronologist, is the idea of the missing millennium. Yes, the Bible's history does harmonize with secular history, when you get the chronology right. We've already stated in our talk here, Josh, I think you said a minute ago, that there's no evidence. We can't find any evidence for the flood. We can't find any evidence for the Exodus, these events of, can we say, of biblical proportions as they say in the world. Well, what's wrong? Why is the data not checking? Why is it not showing the Bible to be true? And the big idea is, we're off, and we're off by a lot in the chronology.

Jennifer:
A lot, but not a lot. I mean, we're not trying to say millions of years or, you know, tens of thousands. It's just a 1000 year misdating of everything before the time of Samuel. The biblical data that gives us a biblical timeline is very sparse in places. And this is one of those places where there is a key number given in 1 Kings 6:1. It says 480 years from the time they came out of Egypt until Solomon built the temple. And Dr. Aardsma is very careful and methodical chronological work back in the nineties led him step by step to the conclusion that that verse originally would have said 1480. Just the one digit there being dropped in a copy somewhere early on is the foundational trouble for the fact that secular history doesn't seem to match at all with the Bible giving us these major ancient events.

Steve:
So that's a real big idea. And it better check out in the real world if it's true. And so there's been a whole lot of research now gone into it, well, if you put that 1000 years back into the timeline, which again, if it doesn't belong there, it's going to make a real mess. You thought you had a mess before, try sticking a 1000 years into the timeline that doesn't belong there. Well, if it does belong there, then things should start adding up. It certainly does. We have shown over and over again, there's the flood, there's the exodus, maybe not the way we thought, that's part of having humility. But yes, put the 1000 years in and doesn't just answer one question, but one right after another.

Joshua:
So I think we should back up a little bit here. And I think we need to clarify how this works. So the way that biblical scholars get dates for things, the few dates that they have, is they take what the Bible says and they look through the stories and they start to add up numbers. So they add up the ages of people or the point the Bible says. And then it was this many years until this thing happened. And then it was this many years until this thing happened. So there's data throughout the Bible that you can add together that gets you some sort of timeline. And so when it comes to King David and everything after, secular history and biblical history match up very nicely. We can find King David in historical documents. We can find King Solomon and from there on, we know that Nebuchadnezzar was a real king. We can find Pilate in the New Testament, it's all there. And so they all match very nicely. However, when you get before King David, things start to get squirrelly.

Jennifer:
It becomes a total mess.

Joshua:
Right. And so there's these numbers are just coming from key verses throughout the Old Testament that people have gone through, added together to try to build a cohesive timeline. However, the problem is the dates of things. So when you do it that way, adding up biblical history, I believe that the traditional biblical date for the Exodus is like 1440, right? 1480, 1450. However, when you look at secular history, what was happening in Egypt around 1440.

Jennifer:
They were having a great time.

Joshua:
Nothing remotely similar to the Exodus was going on.

Steve
Very powerful nation.

Jennifer:
They were even dominating, like the Promised Land area was dominated by Egypt during those years. 

Steve:
And this is what we found over and over and over again.

Joshua:
And if you take the Bible literally, like we want to, take it seriously, the Exodus, some crazy things happened to Egypt that would show up in history. Right? If all the firstborn died, if the rivers returned to blood, if all the livestock died, if all their military was drowned in the Red Sea, that would be pretty obvious. So when the Bible, the Bible does not say that the Exodus happened in 1440, but when you add those numbers up and you say, okay, 1440, the Exodus, we look at 1440 in secular history, nothing happened to Egypt remotely similar to this. That's a problem.

Jennifer:
And that leads you to conclusions that you can find all over the Internet. Like, you know, these poor Jewish people later on just had to make up some kind of history for themselves about God working in their nation. So they made up all these wonderful tales. But we can see that obviously Egypt was just fine. And so this whole Exodus account must not be real.

Joshua:
And it's important to say here, like you said a minute ago, dad, that it's not just the Exodus, that's true of everything. So when you add up the dates and you try to get a date for the flood, the flood is often dated by creationists that like, they'll say, well, according to the Bible, it probably happened at about 2500. But then you start looking at data in the world from around the year 2500 BC...

Steve:
There's civilizations going on. Everybody's fine. Somebody forgot to tell the Egyptians there was a flood, all these memes you see.

Joshua:
So the data does not match what the Bible seems to be saying.

Steve:
We could go on and on and on. Kathleen Kenyon goes in to discover Jericho. We know where Jericho was, goes to the date, and there was no evidence of any city being around.

Jennifer:
It wasn't inhabited for hundreds of years on either side of the traditional date for Jericho. It's like, hmm, it's hard to have Joshua conquering a city when there wasn't a city. You know, like this place was barren during these years.

Steve:
So in our modern times, one Bible event after another in the ancient Old Testament has been just shot out from under us in the data.

Joshua:
Because there's no data to support the traditional dates of the Old Testament account.

Jennifer:
The traditional dates have been in place for a long, long time. A man named Usher, James Usher hundreds of years ago now, kind of around the time of the King James Bible, he made a timeline. He made a chronology that you will still find in study Bibles today. And it's important to note that biblical chronology is a scientific discipline. You know, it's not that special revelation of like, oh, here's this timeline handed down from God. Instead, it's a scientific discipline working with these ancient texts and working with secular history and figuring out the proper timeline. So we've been kind of hung up on an, on really an outdated chronology for a long time. And there's no reason for that. If modern chronology can refine it and can make a correction that's necessary, by all means, we want that.

Joshua:
Yeah, if you go look at your Schofield Study Bible, I'm 99% sure of this, I believe the Schofield Study Bibles have a little date at the very top of each page. That's Usher's chronology that he came up with 400 years ago, how long it was.

Jennifer:
Really, at the top of each page.

Joshua:
And it says like, it says a little year. And so you'll find dates like 1440 for the Exodus and 2500 for the blood. And we are saying over here that chronology is incorrect. It is actually exactly 1000 years off.

Steve:
So what are we saying? So that's the problem. How do we solve it? That's our first big idea. The Missing Millennium.

Jennifer:
So here's what you can affirm in your mind mentally as a university student. Yes, the Bible's history does harmonize with secular history all the way back. We'll talk about creation momentarily. But yes, the flood is there. Now it does not look the same way that certain groups want to tell you. But yes, civilizations were wiped out at the proper date of the flood 3500 BC. And it's repeated across the areas of the globe. So yes, just know that affirmation in your mind. Yes, the Bible's history does harmonize with secular.

Joshua:
When you add 1000 years to the biblical timeline before David, everything starts to harmonize with secular history. So traditional biblical date says the Exodus happened at 1440. Now add 1000 years. Now you're at 2440, right?

Jennifer:
What was Egypt doing then?

Joshua:
You look at Egypt at 2440, 1000 years earlier. And oh my goodness, they fell apart then.

Steve:
It's right at the end of the Old Kingdom.

Jennifer:
They literally collapsed.

Steve:
Nobody really knows why.

Joshua:
Yeah, there's not really a secular explanation for why.

Steve:
We can tell you why.

Joshua:
But if you look at the Bible, well, there you go. The Exodus happened.

Steve:
And that's just one example. Yeah, we could give 100 examples today. We got to keep moving. But yes.

Jennifer:
And we've covered it all and much of it in the in past episodes of the podcast. And there's books. I mean, Dr. Aardsma's very first book was A New Approach to the Chronology where he lays out this missing millennium discovery and the major points there that help secure this correction in the date.

Steve:
So going into your university, you don't have to fear the data. Understand, this is a big idea. Get in your head. A missing millennium in the Bible brings in to the picture solid answers as to why we can't find them in history. Actually, we can. All right. That is a huge big idea. Big idea number two, virtual history, virtual history. When the university student goes into university, and this is everybody's big fear, right? Well, millions and millions of years! Millions and millions of years! And that's been taught to us as Christians that that's evil, that that's terrible, and it's bad. And you're going to lose your salvation or whatever.

Joshua:
It's taught as anti God.

Steve:
Yes, right. And understandably so, I get it. We understand it. We know why, but you don't have to fear this data either. Why? How can you not fear this?

Jennifer:
Right, because we just explained the missing millennium. So we're saying, you know, these events are verified, Jericho, AI, the Exodus, the flood. Okay, what about creation? Because, you already mentioned, I'm going to hear in university that there's millions of years and I don't need to worry about that. But I mean, are you saying creation happened millions and millions of years ago? What? How does this go together?

Steve:
No, because our foundational principle number one was we take a high view of both the Bible and the science. And yes, we do. We believe literally what the Bible says. It's not figurative. It is historical record that this world was created seven, eight...

Jennifer:
Less than 10,000 years ago.

Steve:
Less than 10,000 years ago. Well, how in the world are you going to harmonize that?

Joshua:
And again, how do we arrive at that conclusion? How do we arrive at the conclusion based on the Bible that the earth, the universe was created less than 10,000 years ago? Well, again, it's the same thing. We're adding up little dates in the Bible to build some sort of timeline to try to figure out, when did creation occur? And we can do this, because we have, you know, the Bible teaches Adam,  and Abel, Seth.

Steve:
And evening and morning were the first day, 24 hour periods.

Jennifer:
And number of years they live.

Joshua:
Genealogies are a big help with this. So there is data in the Bible to help us do this. And so the Bible is very clear that creation did happen less than 10,000 years ago, but even with our missing millennium added back in, even if you add 1000 years back into history, like we say you should do, you're still at under 10,000 years.

Steve:
Well, now we're talking about millions and millions of years.

Joshua:
How do we reconcile this?

Steve:
That's the high view of the Bible. But we have this data problem. And we have a high view of the data, the data is showing us that this earth is a whole lot older than less than 10,000 years.

Jennifer:
Yes. And I saw Answers In Genesis, just to name the group, just recently putting out a statement, a tweet or something, "Millions of years is not compatible with Genesis." Okay. So I mean, if that's our mindset, then we really do have a problem. And we are facing some kind of breakdown somewhere.

Steve:
And we would agree the Bible does not teach the earth was created millions of years ago, that we can say.

Joshua:
Right. And that's like the gap theory that people know. The gap theory says the earth was created millions of years ago, and then a million years went by, and then the first day of creation happened. 

Steve:
Which you mentioned, Schofield, I think that's in the Schofield Bible.

Joshua:
Right. The idea of a gap theory. People know that theory, and it's good for us to say, we do not adhere to the gap theory.

Jennifer:
There's a group that teaches that Adam was a historical man but the best they can figure out, he lived 750,000 years ago. Now, biblical chronology and that discipline and that science does not give you room for 750,000 years going back to Adam. Certainly, you're going to have to do some kind of backflips with the biblical text to get Adam 750,000 years ago.

Steve:
Right. And so we're trying hard in Christianity, and praise God for people who have a good heart and they're trying. We all are. And this is good for us. It's good for Christians. I think we're seeking out an infinite God. Right? And so it's part of the whole process. We have an answer. University students going into college, they're facing this. Now, get this in your head--Virtual History. Joshua, explain to us just as briefly, in summary, as we can, because you do a good job with this, I've heard you do before, what is this principle? What is this idea of virtual history?

Joshua:
Right. I'll do my best. So virtual history is a very simple idea once you get it. And so it's very interesting that this problem is...

Steve:
Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

Joshua:
Right. It's very funny to me that this problem is actually, this is not actually a data problem. This is just a thinking problem. And so it's very easy to actually solve this problem. So let's see. What's the best way to go about explaining this?

Steve:
How about the cat? The cat illustration.

Joshua:
So the way I like to say it is, from our point of view as humans, right, I try to only speak from our point of view as humans. I try not to speak from God's perspective because I don't know. But from our point of view as humans, anything that's created from nothing must necessarily have a history to it. Anything. So a good... I'll use this example first and then I'll talk about the cat... So a good way to think about this is, if you write a story, if you write a book, you have to start on page one, and the story starts on page one. So the story begins, you know, Lord of the Rings is a great novel that a lot of people love. And the story begins, but even as you read that first page, you know stuff happened in this fictional world before page one. That's virtual history.

Steve:
The characters didn't just suddenly appear out of nowhere.

Joshua:
I mean, they kind of did. But the world appears on page one. But you know as the reader that these characters, they grew up, they had a life that happened before the first page of that story. So that's one example. Another example, the cat. So if I am somehow able to create a cat sitting on this table that's here in front of me out of nothing, if I just say let there be a cat and there's a cat sitting there. And it's real. It's a real cat. And we call the local veterinarian to come and look at our cat. All the evidence that that veterinarian sees is going to tell him that that cat is a certain number of years old. He has no way of knowing that I created that cat out of nothing. He's looking at the available evidence and he is recognizing the truth. It is a truth that that cat is a mature cat. It came from somewhere. He would say well it had parents obviously.

Steve:
It just ate this particular food about three hours ago in its stomach. There's evidence here that this cat has a history and this is innate in a creation miracle.

Joshua:
Any type of creation from nothing. It's going to have a history.

Jennifer:
What if you created a newborn kitten that was just like one minute old. We have four little kittens around our house right now and it's been fun to observe them and watch them. But what if you created a newborn kitten.

Joshua:
Well a scientist would still say this kitten was conceived. It was carried by a mother and it was birthed.

Jennifer:
And it probably has ancestors like this. And we know it didn't have ancestors like this.

Joshua:
You cannot create a thing that doesn't show a history. You cannot, as humans we cannot conceive of that. So that means it makes perfect sense, when you think about it, that an earth in a universe that was created, we believe as Christians less than 10,000 years ago, would show all the signs of being much older than that. Of course it actually couldn't be any other way. And so a 10,000 year old earth cannot look 10,000 years old.

Steve:
It's got to have a history behind it.

Joshua:
It literally cannot.

Steve:
So the idea, the big idea for the university student is in your mind, again, once you see this you can't unsee it, it just makes too much sense. Virtual history is innate. Is that the right word? It has to be built into a creation type miracle, or anything that's created.

Joshua:
If you believe in creation you have to believe in virtual history. It's required. People haven't figured that out quite yet. But you cannot believe in creation without believing in virtual history.

Steve:
Now a key to this is fallen virtual history, because we don't have time to dwell on all this, because a big argument we always get is, well if God created the world perfect why do we have dinosaur bones? Why is there death and destruction? Well the quick answer to that is, the virtual history that was original in this earth would have probably been, and this is speculation and theory but it makes total sense, would have been a very different virtual history than what transpired after the fall. The Bible very clearly says that every part of God's creation was affected by the curse of sin, and it only makes sense to believe that would include the virtual history as well.

Joshua:
Yeah, we believe, and I believe that the fall cursed time. So it cursed all of time.

Steve:
Present, future and right even back through the past. The evidence of it.

Jennifer:
And we we've talked about this before, but I love this point that, to bring in a little theology, the cross the redemptive work of the cross also spanned throughout time backwards and forwards, we believe that. And so the cross was redeeming from the curse, and so we can see that the curse would have done the same thing to the creation in the negative sense, going backwards and forwards in time. And so we have no idea what the virtual history of the earth looked like before it was cursed.

Steve:
We don't know what the earth looked like before it was cursed.

Jennifer:
I think you know many Christian groups are trying to look for a history in the earth that is perfect, because they haven't wrapped their brains around this concept. You're not going to find a perfect history. Obviously we don't find a perfect history, but as soon as you realize the doctrine of the fall and what the Bible is plainly teaching there, that we had supernatural creation less than 10,000 years ago, and then we had the fall of the creation, and we're in it. We can't get out of it. We can't remove ourselves. We can't back up or look at it from a panoramic view. We are in this falling creation, and so the secular professor, he is 300% in that falling creation doing all the science that he's doing, and doesn't have that perspective of the history that the Bible is specifically telling us that, yes we understand. We understand everything about why his science is showing everything that it's showing. It is showing it. It is showing it. You know even if it's showing millions of years, we serve an infinite God. This is his creation, and why wouldn't we think that the history of it would go back millions and millions of years ago. And that brings up another question that we have never yet addressed on this podcast.

Joshua:
Well let me just make a couple points. First of all this is different from appearance of age. So appearance of age has been taught and it's how creationists solve problems like starlight. So starlight, light travels at the speed of light, obviously, and so when a star is so far away that we can see the light and it should have taken the light more than 10,000 years to get here, people say well how do you reconcile that. And people say well it was created that way.

Steve:
Or if you cut a tree down there's tree rings.

Joshua:
And so basically virtual history is appearance of age but just extrapolated further. It's like yeah, it doesn't just look that old... it is that old. It actually is, virtually

Jennifer:
I don't understand why the appearance of age group and people will use it on some things but not others, like the starlight. Because they have to have an explanation. But then in other areas they're like, nope, it's not that because the creation's not that old. And like you're saying, it's really a completely different doctrine as far as appearance of age, like as if God is slapping on something that's not actually real, or it's not actually what happened. And we're saying that if you could travel back in time, a million years ago and whatever the science says happened then, you would find it happening. Now the fact that God created 10,000 years ago does not negate the fact that that's a virtual history just like a virtual world or a virtual meeting. Is the meeting happening? Yes, it's happening virtually. So it's a concept that you have to wrap your mind around, but as a university student if have that concept in your mind, it will settle you down. You really will be unfazed as you process information through this concept that, like we're saying, as soon as you begin to think about creation miracles, supernatural creation which we don't experience in our lives every day, at any point really, and so we're not familiar with it. But do the thought exercises and talk it out and get ready to just process information through that gateway.

Steve:
Sure, let this sink in. This big idea it's huge. You mentioned something we haven't answered on this podcast before.

Jennifer:
We've never brought up on this podcast before, okay, but what about evolution? Because in the millions of years you have this thing called evolution and we know that's not in the bible.

Joshua:
Well, and why is evolution a problem for creationists? Well first of all it's a problem because it takes longer than 10,000 years to evolve things. Secondly, it does present some theological issues, because if humans did evolve from monkeys, can you still say that we're made in the image of God? You know, and so there's a lot, evolution does present some issues.

Steve:
I would say evolution presents great issues. Very big issues for Christianity.

Joshua:
So this is my opinion on evolution as a 25 year old. I think from what I understand, and let me start with this, virtual history opens you up as a Christian to new ideas, and it opens you up to taking in the available data. So when you believe that history only goes back 10,000 years and that's a hard stop and there's nothing before it, there's a lot of data you just have to throw out because I can't, I can't believe that because it doesn't fit in my timeline.

Jennifer:
Or you have to tell a bunch of tall tales like all the ice ages happened after the flood.

Joshua:
So when you have virtual history in your toolbox and you understand that that's how a creation miracle would work necessarily then you can start to look at the data. So evolution is a theory, it's a hypothesis based on the available data that we have. So scientists have looked in the earth, they've looked at fossils, they've looked at different types of evidence and data, and one of the biggest conclusions that they come away with, or one of the biggest ideas that secular science has come away with is that, oh we think everything evolved from more simple organisms.

Jennifer:
And they have a theory, and that's a theory mainstream science today recognizes as a very well established theory.

Joshua:
It's considered to be very well established, but it is important to remember it is a theory. And in my opinion it's a legitimate theory, there are reasons why people believe it, but it is not a hard and fast fact, and it seems to me from what I've seen that the theory of evolution continues to even be questioned even more and more today. And so I think, I think it's a legitimate theory based on the data that scientists have, and if God wants to have done the ancient history that way and had things evolved from other things, I'm not afraid of that. But I also think that there are other possible ways that you could interpret that data.

Steve:
And again you're saying in virtual history.

Joshua:
Correct.

Steve:
The high view of the Bible is, Adam and Eve, garden, less than 10,000 years ago, but what did God allow to be in the virtual history? We're not afraid of that.

Jennifer:
Especially the fallen virtual history that's going to be futility to some extent. I think it was the Apostle Paul that said that all creation was subjected to futility, and that is kind of how you feel when you learn about evolution, and so different groups point out that it's not good for our kids to have a worldview that their human life just kind of came out of amoebas you know millions of years ago. And Dr. Aardsma has written in some of his writings that in the virtual history, he seriously doubts that amoeba to man evolution is what it actually does show. But we know, and we have many reasons to have confidence in the biblical account that we were supernaturally created in the image of God, and that's man's beginnings as far as in this real world. But this virtual history is a question all of its own, and there's no doubt we can learn so much from it.

Steve:
It's a solid idea. It's a big answer for the university student, and anybody who's struggling with these questions. Now we can't talk about everything and there's a lot of questions... you get answers and it presents more questions. That's life. We could talk about why would God... why would he want to trick us. I mean there's been all kinds of questions, and of course now we are into theology and philosophy and all of that.

Joshua:
Be careful about asking why would God, I have found that to be a futile exercise.

Steve:
I mean you know, we have the flooding we're dealing with right now in the world. Why would God anything. But, that's not our point today, our point today is to give these ideas. To arm our young people with real answers that will help them. All right, let's hit our third one. It's a big one. Our last point, we don't have a ton of time. The third big idea that we have that will be a help to any university student is the idea of Noahic events. Noahic events. What in the world is that? Well another point of contention in the world today is of course climate change. And something that very many parents and grandparents are concerned about with their kids going to school, they're going to hear all this stuff about climate change and that's everybody's evangelistic message today in the world. Well what about this climate change?

Jennifer:
And saving our planet, saving right humanity, saving the ocean life and all the life the arctic glaciers and everything. It's going to permeate, i mean it permeates even a secular high school education let alone university level, because it is one of the biggest looming issues of our day.

Steve:
So in our effort to hold a high view of both science and the Bible, not fearing real data that's coming out, what are we saying here?

Jennifer:
We are just going to give a very very abbreviated short version of this here today on this podcast for the university student, because this is an extensive topic. And Josh we'd love to have you on another time and delve into it in more detail, but for the purposes of this podcast episode we just wanted to get across the big idea that a high view of the data shows us that climate change indeed is real. And you are going to be hearing a lot about that at the university level. And then a high view of scripture actually sheds light on the climate change issue in a way that brings so much clarity to it. We have to have that special revelation in order to really know the history of our planet, and we have to have the concept of virtual history in there, and understanding Noah's flood as a Noahic event, and how that relates to the globe going through warming and cooling cycles. It's a huge topic, so fascinating, and we just want the university student to know that Bible science research speaks to this topic in a way that you will not hear anywhere else. And just have that in the back of your mind as you are sure to hear the carbon emissions theory of global warming, and these kind of things just really at the forefront of your university education. Just know that the bible science perspective is of utmost importance on this.

Steve:
And if you feel that this is something that you really need information on, is something that you're facing and that you're dealing with, or you're young person going into university, we have a wealth of information here on the topic of Noahic events and climate change. And again taking the high view of science and the data and a high view of the Bible, bringing them together to show what is going on in our world. We have given a lot of information on this podcast today we don't want to get too deep into this particular topic and overwhelm you today. You might already feel a bit overwhelmed with everything we've given you. But we did want to take the opportunity to put it in front of you and let you know that there are answers to this, and do not let this data scare you. Do not let the preconceived ideas of climate change throw you off course, and want to reject true data that's coming out today. Hey, the topic is very very important and needs to be dealt with by God's people, by people who understand the real world data and the real Bible data that we have in our hands, this wealth of information.

Jennifer:
My prayer is that students, Christian students that are going into environmental sciences will hear this and will have a different perspective. And go read Dr. Aardsma's articles because we're not able to give you all the nitty gritty and all the graphs and all the science, but wrap your brain around it, and have this perspective so that you are empowered to go forward and make a real difference in the future, which isn't going to be easy of course, but knowing that the climate change topic is going to be so pervasive in the university atmosphere, and knowing that our Bible science research, most surprisingly, has gone in that direction. Nobody anticipated that, but we definitely wanted to give it a spot here on this episode.

Steve:
Wow, we've hit a lot of stuff. And it's been good. I think we've hit some major, the major key points that young people going into university will face in the classroom. Now there is good advice to give to the student going into the university that this is what we would categorize as new truth. Now, truth is truth, but to most of us this is new information. And it's wrong headed to go into a university setting thinking we're going to change everybody. We're going to get everybody straight we're going to give everybody these new ideas and they're just going to... No, that's probably not going to happen. We can testify to that here. We try to give this information out, not everybody you know patting us on the back for it. So be careful with that. Don't go in thinking you're going to set a professor straight. Really go in with the mentality of, "I have some answers here. And if i get an opportunity to say something to someone else and share it and all of that then praise the Lord."

Jennifer:
And with the attitude of, God what do you want me to do? I mean, You're equipping me here, and I just heard this podcast and I got some really new ideas I'm gonna have to go check out, but now I'm going to university and God you're equipping me for a life's work of some sort." And just be ready and willing for wherever that's going to take you.

Joshua:
I would say for anybody listening you know take what we've said and check it out for yourself and do your own thinking. Be a critical thinker and read the Bible and look at the data and all of that. And that's very important, because you should always be trying to think through things and arrive at the best conclusions that you can. But I will also say, Our title today was unfazed, and I like that. That's a good word. I believe that this stuff we've talked about, these principles that we've talked about can help you be unfazed in the world that we live today. There's a lot of information coming at you. There's a lot of data coming at you. But I will say, in my experience being at university for a long time, seeing a lot of stuff online, YouTube is a great place to get exposed to new ideas, I feel as though I've been exposed to quite a few new ideas over the last seven, eight years, and I have yet to run across something that really really fazed me. And if I did, I would think about it for a while and consider it, and there's good answers for stuff, but this stuff that we're talking about today really has enabled me to be able to just take things honestly, and not be afraid of stuff. I try my best to not be afraid of data, to not be afraid also of what the Bible says. And I personally, and my personal testimony is that I have felt unfazed, at least in the face of both Christian science, Christian teaching, secular science teaching, and these points seem to me to be quite strong and hold up under a lot of scrutiny. So that's my opinion.

Steve:
You have not had to throw out your faith, your conservative literal view of the Bible. You've been able to retain that. And at the same time not throw out the obvious data that's coming through our modern day of science and that information.

Joshua:
Yeah, that literal interpretation looks a little different from your standard literal interpretation. It does look different but that's okay. I'm okay with that. I'm not afraid of that.

Steve:
Now real quick, you mentioned a minute ago, Josh, let's touch on. We don't necessarily just want to say all data is true.

Joshua:
Right, yeah I just want to add this point. Our second main point today was don't fear data. Don't fear data is not the same thing as accept all data. So we're not saying that you should just, everything that you've ever read on the internet, or everything that a scientist has ever said, just you know drink it down. But be a critical thinker. And as much as you're able to, as much as your training is enabling you to engage with data, engage with evidence. And if it's good, hard evidence, if it seems to be factually true, then believe it. If it's not, then don't. Not everything science says is true. Science is an ongoing process of discovery. Science is always changing and updating. And that is a difference between science and the Bible is that the Bible will always say what it says. Our understanding of it, our interpretation will change just like science does, but science is not the sole arbiter of truth. God is. And God gave us science which updates and changes, and he gave us his Word which doesn't. Although our understanding does, and it's important to understand those two things.

Steve:
And just because something is considered mainstream science doesn't automatically say, well then that must be true.

Jennifer:
So wrapping it up, a university student with these ideas is going to be rare. Probably the only person on the campus who has this type of perspective that we've offered today, and that's okay.

Joshua:
Hopefully not for long.

Jennifer:
Right, I mean our goal is to see these ideas permeate out, and we're seeking for ways to expose new audiences to the information here. But even if you are the only person on the campus, is it possible for something to be true if you're the only person who currently thinks that way? It's definitely possible. History bears that out. And mainstream science itself, as you were saying, is going to always include some fads, some prejudices, and just because it's generally accepted and it's kind of the premise, the underlying foundation of so much of what your professors are going to teach, doesn't mean that it is in fact the correct perspective, as you were saying about science is always changing and correcting itself, as we do what God created us to do, which really is to pursue the truth.

Jennifer:
Yes, that's right. Joshua, thank you for joining us today on our podcast.

Joshua:
It was a good time.

Steve:
It was a good time. We have given a lot of information here, and we'll have Josh back again on our podcast.

Jennifer:
We really should. A three-way discussion is fun, I liked it.

Steve:
Check this information out, go back and look at past episodes. Dr. Aardsma has a wealth of articles at thebiblicalchronologist.org, and you can read his newsletters there. Travel with him through his discoveries.

Jennifer:
Everything we talked about today is well documented and readily available to you for free.

Steve:
And if you're a university student you could probably use a $50 Amazon gift card. That would probably come in handy. Don't forget to leave us a positive written review on Apple Podcasts or on our website at thebcmessenger.com, and this month we are going to draw a name and giving away a $50 Amazon gift card. So enter into that, and you may have a good chance of winning that.

Jennifer:
Just be honest be nice and we'll enter you in the drawing.

Steve:
Well thank you for joining us today on our podcast.

Jennifer:
We will see you in September as this year continues to fly along at an amazing rate.

Joshua:
Stay unfazed.

Steve:
That's right.

Jennifer:
Unfazed.